"And of Orlando I will also tell / Things unattempted yet in prose or rhyme"

[larryhammer]

It's instructive to compare the opening stanza of various versions of Orlando Furioso ("Roland Enraged").

Ariosto text (1532 revision):

Le donne, i cavallier, l'arme, gli amori,
le cortesie, l'audaci imprese io canto,
che furo al tempo che passaro i Mori
d'Africa il mare, e in Francia nocquer tanto,
seguendo l'ire e i giovenil furori
d'Agramante lor re, che si diè vanto
di vendicar la morte di Troiano
sopra re Carlo imperator romano.

Harington translation (1591):

Of Dames, of Knights, of armes, of loves delight,
Of courtesies, of high attempts I speake,
Then when the Moores transported all their might
On Africke seas, the force of France to breake:
Incited by the youthfull heate and spight
Of Agramant their King, that vow'd to wreake
The death of King Trayano (lately slaine)
Upon the Romane Emperour Charlemaine.

Rose translation (1823):

OF LOVES and LADIES, KNIGHTS and ARMS, I sing,
Of COURTESIES, and many a DARING FEAT;
And from those ancient days my story bring,
When Moors from Afric passed in hostile fleet,
And ravaged France, with Agramant their king,
Flushed with his youthful rage and furious heat,
Who on king Charles', the Roman emperor's head
Had vowed due vengeance for Troyano dead.

Reynolds translation (1975):

Of ladies, cavaliers, of love and war,
Of courtesies and of brave deeds I sing,
In times of high endevour when the Moor
Had crossed the sea from Africa to bring
Great harm to France, when Agramante swore
In wrath, being now the youthful Moorish king,
To avenge Troiano, who was lately slain,
Upon the Roman Emperor Charlemagne.

I, of course, already have my biases here, but clearly this is the sort of thing online polls were invented for. Well, that and the dinner menu -- but since it's Janni's turn to cook tonight that would be beside the point.

[Poll #1745137]

Comments

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

I like the Ariosto and Harington equally but differently. I would love Harington more if he hadn't lost the singing reference (I know no-one sang Ariosto, but it makes me think of more ancient poems).

[larryhammer]

"Speake" is one of the two words that gives me a hitch in Harington's, especially since Ariosto constantly plays throughout the poem with how he's singing and not singing the text.

---L.

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

What's the other word? (I now have a case of burning curiosity.)

[larryhammer]

"Attempts"

---L.

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

it really weakens the sense, doesn't it?

[larryhammer]

Yeah -- in what otherwise is a vigorously worded stanza.

---L.

[beth-bernobich.livejournal.com]

I voted on the sole question where I had some knowledge.

[larryhammer]

And a very discerning answer it is.

But, do none of the texts sing to you?

---L.

[beth-bernobich.livejournal.com]

After reading them aloud, I liked the Harrington the best.

[larryhammer]

There ya go.

---L.

[larryhammer]

BTW, the subject line is the start of the next stanza, Reynolds' version, and I keep wanting to emend "I will" to "will I," for the rhythm and emphasis. Make of this what you will.

---L.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I don't feel qualified to judge the first question, really; it came down to the fact that the line "the force of France to breake" is the one phrase in any of the English versions that I found striking. I also perversely like Harington for not using the verb "sing," even though I can see it's in the Italian, simply because I've translated the Aeneid and am So Over people copying Virgil. <g>

I dislike Rose reversing the order of the last two lines -- when possible, I consider it high priority to preserve that ordering, even if you're re-arranging stuff elsewhere in your stanza -- whereas if I want to know what's actually going on, Reynolds is the by far the clearest. But my notion of this kind of poetry was shaped heavily enough by Shakespeare that I'm pretty well programmed to see Harington as "more poetic" than the others, regardless of how they actually compare.

[larryhammer]

I don't mind Rose reversing the last two lines as it feels like a reasonable way to avoid the choppy relative clauses that are one of the two main weakness of Reynolds (the other being sticking to the meter a little too tightly, in a way that gives it the lines an almost mechanical feel), and the order of why and on whom the revenge doesn't strike me as essential to the narrative effect. That's interpretation, tho', and one can reasonably disagree on that.

I find more the more telling order is first line: Ariosto has a careful chiamus of peace-war-war-peace, which Harington keeps; Rose disorders to peace-peace-war-war, giving a rather different effect; and Reynolds alternates to peace-war-peace-war, with a slightly different effect.

I find Harington's more poetic not just because of the Elizabethan language, but because he uses more forceful language with supple rhythms. (In comparison, Rose is particularly flat.) But I also find Reynold's the clearest at conveying the basic sense of the stanza.

---L.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

the order of why and on whom the revenge doesn't strike me as essential to the narrative effect. That's interpretation.

You may well be right; I haven't read the poem, so I don't know what follows after that final line, which would strongly influence how important I feel it is to keep Charlemagne at the end. I think I latched onto that because it reminds me of the five or so variant translations I saw of Catullus 85 (Odi et amo), some of which signally failed to to preserve the effect of the original ending on excrucior. That was the first time I'd really attended to how sometimes the order matters, and I don't like translations that muck with it.

I hadn't noticed the chiasmus in the first line. I think I'd place Reynold's synchysis above Rose's AABB for effect, and would have to reserve my judgment re: chiasmus vs. synchysis after having read the rest of the poem, to know if there's any interesting effect that comes from semi-pairing war with dames and love with knights. (It's less expected, at least.)

[larryhammer]

Exactly, on knowing when to preserve a feature of the original -- which is sometimes harder than others. It's ... an interesting challenge.

Reynold's is definitely preferable to Rose, for the first line order. The poem as a whole plays around with the possible pairings -- there are two lady knights of major plot importance (one from each side) and there are knights that get lost in love (most notably Orlando, who goes mad for disappointed love). Which just goes to show it's an epic chivalric romance.

---L.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Then I certainly prefer the chiasmus to the synchysis, though the latter is passable.

Translation is freaking hard. You can never preserve everything at once; you have to prioritize, and some readers will always disagree with your choices.

[larryhammer]

Yup, yup.

Heck, *I* disagree with some of my own choices. Especially when faced with, say, one of Ki no Tsurayuki's better efforts. Though with Japanese, I'm rarely as worried about preserving order -- all too often syntax differences is going to prevent that anyway -- as ambiguity and double-meanings.

But circling back to that first line, context affects local choices -- where sometimes the context is the whole schmere.

---L.

[larryhammer]

Okay, I just spent 15 minutes failing to find the formal name of the AABB structure ...

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Heh. I wondered, but was too lazy to search.

[larryhammer]

When Silva Rhetoricae fails you, you know it's going to be hard.

---L.

[(Anonymous)]

I believe it's known as "Agnetha before Björn," or, in the high tradition, "Ladies first." --Matt

[larryhammer]

No, that's the ABBA structure.

---L.

[(Anonymous)]

But I thought Anni-Frid was the first "A"!

MY LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE

[larryhammer]

Like I can remember the order of the names.

Or even, all their names.

---L.

[snakypoet]

I like the Rose translation best because the verse does actually sing. The Reynolds has some clumsy lines, I think, and weak phrases.

[larryhammer]

Interesting. I find the Rose version the flattest.

---L.