Aeneas in three words

[larryhammer]

Such. The. WHINER.

Seriously, he's the emo epic hero. Every step of the way, it's bitch bitch bitch about what he's been through. Which was arguably just as bad as Odysseus's trials -- though who arrives with companions still alive? -- but Aeneas magnifies it with his whinging. 'Course, Odysseus got laid significantly more as well. Maybe that's the Trojan's problem -- he has too many unused Trojans in his pocket.

---L.

Comments

[klwilliams.livejournal.com]

I've always thought so, too. What a baby.

[aberwyn.livejournal.com]

Rant ahead: apology in advance: but this is something that really bugs me.

It looks to me like neither of you understand the cultural contruct of manhood in classical times. The stone-faced take-it-and-suck-it-up hero is a fairly late Anglo-Saxon cultural standard, not a Mediterranean one.

Consider: the first time we see Odysseus, he's weeping and moaning about being stuck on an island with a beautiful nymph when he wants to go home to his wife. Then there's Ajax, throwing a massive temper tantrum and committing suicide because soneone else gets Achilles' armor. And what about that Achilles, sulking in his tent because Agamemnon took his girl? Agamemnon himself takes the girl because that nasty old Apollo demanded he give his girl back to her father.

Heroes are expected to have strong emotions and to show them in the heroic literature of their times. This continues through the Middle Ages in France and Italy, if you've read the Roland/Orlando material. Also William of Orange, come to think of it, who burst into tears and complains mightily when things go really wrong. Even King Arthur's knights in the oldest strata of legend moan and weep.

A modern person really needs to read classical literature on its own terms, not ours. You'll get more out of it.

[larryhammer]

Actually, Kit, I do know that. My reaction is based on his coming across as bitching even more than, for ex, Odysseus.

(It doesn't help that I don't really like Virgil -- being a Son of Ovid all the way. Expect snark about Virgil's women to come in a later post.)

---L.

[aberwyn.livejournal.com]

Well, if you know, why not use the information?

Have you read Vergil in the original yet? is always my next question in these arguments that we have. :-)

Another thing to consider: with a lot of early poetry in general, the emotions being expressed are being verbalized for the first time in literature. They look old-hat to us because we're at the end of 2,000 years of imitation, echos, expansion, and revisions of the verbalizations.

Aeneas was Vergil's attempt to make a new kind of hero, actually, while keeping all the trappings of the old ones. He does what he does because of the Will of the Gods, not because he's seeking glory, profit, girls, immortality for his best friend, and so on. This was something new in literature. It's one reason that the Christians tried to co-opt Vergil into their canon.

What you're seeing as "whining" is the healthy reaction of someone doing something he absolutely hates doing but can't get out of. He is trying to found a new city for his people -- the gods keep shoving him onward. BTW, he loses a hell of a lot of companions at every step of the way, to plague on Crete, to storms at sea, to shipwreck, and finally to the war in Italy. Does Mandelbaum gloss over that?

Unless my memory fails me, he does stop fighting the gods and complaining after his trip to the Underworld in book 6. After he sees the vision of the future of Rome, he finally understands what's going on and accepts it. Before, he's been trying to follow blind orders, never a comfortable position to be in.

Am awaiting the snark about the women -- I suspect I see them very differently than you do.

Also BTW, since I know you love Ovid, I'd recommend you read Vergil's Georgics and Eclogues rather than the Aeneid. That's where V. indulges hmself with the clever wordplay and beautiful imagery. However, the translations of those that I've seen are HORRIBLE and weak. So don't. :-)

[larryhammer]

Because this is very much a contemporary reader response, in the same spirit as Ninja Replacement Scores. And for me, Aeneas isn't working as an epic hero. Though, yeah, to be fair, as of book VIII his whinging has gone down considerably.

No, haven't read in the original Latin -- I'm up for picking my way through smutty epigrams or short elegies, but anything long wears out my patience. Especially when there's little that's witty to keep my interest.

Given "The God Voice," I'm certain that my take on his women is different. As it probably should be. That's how we get different creations, by responding differently to the raw materials.

---L.

[jamiam.livejournal.com]

for the record, i thought your post was spot-on hysterical

[aberwyn.livejournal.com]

That's how we get different creations, by responding differently to the raw materials.

Quite so. And besides, it's fun to talk about all this stuff.

[palomapus.livejournal.com]

try reading the exchanges on vicodin! These exchanges are fascnating anyway, but add in muzziness of a kind you are not used to and wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[larryhammer]

It's probably fortunate, then, that I don't have any Vicodin. I'm muzzy enough today.

*squints blearily at his stack of edits*

---L.

[returnoftheblog.livejournal.com]

"Maybe that's the Trojan's problem -- he has too many unused Trojans in his pocket."

*stifles urge to laugh out loud in his campus library*