After the SPOILERIFIC apocalypse

[larryhammer]

More general discussion here.

Okay, let me see if I have this straight. The Anthy and Akio we were seeing were in some sense projections of the bound Anthy and Dios. I'm going to call the original Anthy, the one who bound Dios and was bound, Anthy1 and Utena's friend, the Rose Bride, Anthy2. We meet Anthy1 three times during the series: when Utena comes out of the coffin (as shown in episode 34), in the backstory Dios tells her then (also ep.34: I'm assuming what we were shown was correct, and it was Dios there, and when Akio said it was him he was lying), and in the coffin Utena opens at the end (ep.39).

Possibly because of his time in the world, Akio no longer shared Dios's goals -- he said as much in ep.13. Akio wanted not to free Dios, but (re)take the power of Dios for his own ends. Anthy2 was also changed, though she kept the goal of freeing herself (both selves?), but became willing to do anything to for that goal. Utena's friendship with Anthy2, however, changed her again, to being able to accept love and friendship (which is why Dios picked Utena). But this change was not enough for her to save Utena -- thus the failure of Anthy2 to grasp her hand -- but merely to want to. So while Anthy1 (and possibly Anthy2???) were freed, Utena was lost. But not irredeemably, given Anthy1's departure and vow.

Do I have that straight?

---L.

Comments

[marith.livejournal.com]

Anthy2 was also changed, though she kept the goal of freeing herself (both selves?), but became willing to do anything to for that goal.

Did Anthy really have a goal? The sense I got was that she was simply hiding as much as possible from herself and her actions. The Rose Bride has no will of her own, she's a 'doll with no heart'. After sacrificing everything herself for Dios/Akio for so long, she doesn't know how to be any other way. (Possibly it hurts less if there isn't a real person there to be hurt, in a sense.)


For me, the way Utena revolutionized the world was in reaching the real person Anthy, not the dissociated shell, and convincing her to take an action for herself. She grabbed for Utena's hand, knowing that Utena would be killed or terribly hurt trying to save her - accepting someone else's sacrifice instead of being the sacrifice. If there was an Anthy1 and an Anthy2, they merged back together at that point. I'm not sure that they ever were completely separate, but Anthy at the end is much more like a whole person, much more present, than before.

(The events in the ep.12 duel (with Touga), and the lyrics for that duel song explain some of what's going on in Anthy's head and the nature of the split. I think. Maybe.)

...And I have another theory, said the brontosaurus expert, but will hold off unless you actually want to hear it. :)

[larryhammer]

I'll have to revist the song. The concern for Utena that first evinced there (and broke the power she was conduit for) is pivotal, yes. There are small signs that the Anthy we saw had some small amounts of free will. Akio could compell her, but he sometimes had to force her, and she could taunt him; occasional expressions; small tauntings of Nanami.

At this point, after sleeping on it, my biggest question right now is why/how Akio's goals came to diverge from Dios's, especially since the Anthy's remained constant -- to escape.

And yes, I'm intrested in your dinosaur theory.

---L.

[janni.livejournal.com]

Did Anthy have no will? The impression I get is that, behind the apparent passivity, she was actually doing quite a bit of very active manipulation, and using her power to do so.

[marith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, she's a very skilled passive-aggressive manipulator. I don't think Anthy had no will, just that she wished she didn't and tried to make it go away.

In a lot of ways she reminded me of a child abuse victim: devoted to the person causing her suffering and trying to please them, and at the same time hating and resenting everything and acting that out. We see her use her powers to manipulate people, for revenge and for convenience, but never directly to help herself or spare herself pain.

[larryhammer]

With the significant exception that we see Anthy exert herself to help Utena without prompting. I'd have to check but I think at least a couple of those times were not directly promoting Akio's/Rose Bride's goals.

---L.

[marith.livejournal.com]

True. Her games with Nanami were definitely personal. I was just struck by the way they didn't actually accomplish anything; they didn't do anything to stop her from bullying Anthy, or change her behavior at all.

Getting slapped around by Nanami's minions didn't seem to be necessary to advance the Plan, so why did she put up with it?

[larryhammer]

Not breaking cover?

---L.

[marith.livejournal.com]

Not breaking cover?

Could be, but given the range of the Rose Bride's powers, there were surely ways she could have protected herself while making it look completely coincidental.

[larryhammer]

More ruminations. Akio made a couple key mistakes, but two seem paramount to me, because they made his scemes inherently self-defeating. He needed a prince of the noblest heart to open the Rose Gate, and believed that wielding the sword pulled from that heart would do it. Apparently this was wrong, but then he made it worse: he weakened the heart of the strongest prince (determined by the dueling competition) by seducing her, so he'd be able to take her own sword away. But that, of course, weakened her heart's sword -- making it not strong enough to open the gate, even if that had been the key.

Three things I wish had been shown in the last episode, but weren't for obvious reasons: Where Anthy got the sword she stabbed Utena with, the moment Anthy realized Akio's schemes had failed (and what her reaction was), and what effect Akio's breaking Utena's blade had on her.

---L.

[janni.livejournal.com]

Still not convinced there's a present-day version of Dios. Given that at the end Dios was also trying to keep Utena from succeeding (stay here ... stop struggling), I think Dios really did probably become Akio with the passing of time.

Am fascinated, more and more as I think about it, at how Utena manages to be at once prince and sacrifice, as if they're two sides of the same coin. Which may be part of the point.

Minor threads: Liked some of the wrap-up, like Shiori getting a life and taking up her own fencing sword. Want to know whether/how Nanami comes to terms with Touga, who she still thinks isn't her brother (implication is that she's come to terms with being normal, not above/better than anyone else); and where Miki/Kozue's relationship winds up (did he let go of her around the time he let go of Anthy?)

I love that Miki now has an assistant with his stopwatch-work now. Even though we still don't know what said assistant is assisting with.

Like Wakaba's new fangirl, and her finding her onion prince, both, too.

Hate the business of characters forgetting about Utena. Always hate stories that involve forgetting the adventure after, even if in theory it's Anthy's remembering that matters.

[larryhammer]

At least the forgetting was set up, with the forgetting of the Black Rose Affair. As we're reminded by a glimpse of the ruins of Nemuro Hall at the end.

... how Utena manages to be at once prince and sacrifice, as if they're two sides of the same coin. Which may be part of the point.

Very much the point, as Anthy's original mistake was made to prevent Dios from doing just that.

I'm still thinking about the Dios/Akio existential status thing. But you may be right, given Dios was the last test of her nobility. (Notice, btw, that Utena's slamming her fist in the floor was a visual echo of her doing so next to the Black Rose Boy's head when she challenged him to a duel.)

---L.

[larryhammer]

Okay, ways in which Akio and Dios are separate include the scenes of them together in ep.13 and ep.39 and the way the spirit of Dios enters Utena as she duels -- which even Akio calls the power of Dios.

It may be that Akio is all that physically remains of Dios, and the being we see as Dios now is pure spirit. And that this division is precisely what the Princes's little sister Anthy did to bind him.

---L.

[marith.livejournal.com]

Given that at the end Dios was also trying to keep Utena from succeeding (stay here ... stop struggling), I think Dios really did probably become Akio with the passing of time.

I read that as a deliberate taunt, to get her up and moving again, rather than a genuine attempt to stop her. He was saying infuriating things (you poor thing, you tried so hard, but you're only a girl) rather than calming ones.

[janni.livejournal.com]

That's possible--it clearly was some sort of test, deliberate or not.

What happened to Dios at the end, if he was there, though?

[larryhammer]

We don't know. One of the frustrating threads, that. That Akio is still bound (much as Migake was) implies Dios is. But we're never shown it.

---L.

[marith.livejournal.com]

Dunno! He left the scene, if I remember right; he turned his back on Akio, clenched fists implying anger, and climbed onto a carousel horse and rode off.

If they are separate, I don't think they unified in the same way the 'Anthys' did. Akio hasn't learned anything or escaped his own prison.

Late to the party...

[shanmuir.livejournal.com]

I just finished seeing UTENA, and my reactions are similar to mareth's.

I see Dios and Anthy2 as the "good, pure" sides of each of the respective folks and Akio and Anthy1 as the "worldly, corruptible" sides of each. As previously said, Utena brings revolution to Anthy's world not only by healing her and merging those back together, but giving her the strength to finally leave the game, which you get the impression that Utena may not have even been the first to have been sucked into (Akio talks about rewriting the rules for the Rose Crest like they either previously failed or he rewrites the game every time).

That said, Akio/Dios' world is never healed, and he remains a broken person.

Would also be the key as to why "never losing nobility" is important. Nobility can be seen as synonymous as purity, perhaps. And while Utena mainly still had that, by allowing herself to even be corrupted slightly be Akio's seduction meant that while her noble side is not yet totally locked away, the wordly side did for brief periods come forth. Which is perhaps, why, in the end she lost.

The main question I have is that since no one really quite remembers who Utena is or what happened, we cannot even be sure if Utena is even alive or if she is what her own mental state would be.

Also of note for anyone who runs across this thread and has seen the UTENA THE MOVIE (which ends quite differently), did anyone notice that Jury's story around the barbecue near in the second to last episode echoes elements of the feature film?

Re: Late to the party...

[larryhammer]

Now I'm trying to remember whether purity is ever talked about in addition to nobility. Time to rewatch. (And snag a copy of the movie.)

---L.

Re: Late to the party...

[shanmuir.livejournal.com]

Not as much as nobility and righteousness per se, but it is. Sometimes it seems nobility and purity are used like synoymns, though I'm not sure I agree with that take.

In the second to last episode Akio descrinbes Anthy as a "poor foolish creature" whose "heart was so pure she sacrificed herself for a prince that never even existed". This is why I was thinking of it in application to the Anthy in the coffin and Dios; I find less support at the moment for its application to Utena.

I definitely have some rewatching to do as well...