larryhammer: a wisp of smoke, label: "it comes in curlicues, spirals as it twirls" (curlicues)
Larry Hammer ([personal profile] larryhammer) wrote2014-02-23 08:53 am
Entry tags:

"yes the king of the beavers / you cannot deceive us / and you can't fool owls"

So there's this the odd linguistic feature of English pronouns in compound subjects where they switch between nominative and objective forms depending on the order. That is, "Me and Julio were down by the schoolyard" sounds entirely correct even though technically it should be "I and Julio" -- which actually sounds so stiff it feels actively wrong -- but in the reverse form, it's "Julio and I were down by the schoolyard" that sounds correct ("Julio and me" sounds acceptable as a colloquialism but to be avoided when speaking in formal registers).

Does anyone know the name for this?

---L.

Subject quote from "Owls," Weebl.

[identity profile] sartorias.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
No, but I wonder if it's somehow akin to how allergic we are to the simple present tense--we always opt for the progressive present, but are free to use the simple past, etc.

We don't say "I eat" but we can say "I ate, I have eaten" etc

[identity profile] mount-oregano.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
English verb tenses convey a lot of information both on relative times of actions and on intentionality. "I'm going to go to the store" implies that I have fixed plans to do so, while "I will go to the store" could refer to any time. It's one of the fussy features of the language and something I spend a whole lot of time on when I'm teaching it as English as a Foreign Language.

[identity profile] mount-oregano.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)
It's a solecism, a non-standard usage or grammatical construction, although that's a large category and not limited to this construction.

[identity profile] mount-oregano.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I checked in Fowler's Modern English Usage and it calls it "solecism" and "false grammar" but nothing else. There probably is a name out there, though. Sorry.

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 08:02 pm (UTC)(link)
"Me and Julio were down by the schoolyard" sounds very informal to me - I certainly wouldn't use that construction in more formal other contexts.

Whether anyone ever actually told me this I'm not sure, but I have it in my brain that to say "I and Julio" rather an "Julio and I" is objectionable because it seems egotistical to put oneself first on the list.

[identity profile] mount-oregano.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I have a grammar book -- "Practical English Usage" by Michael Swan -- that says politeness is the reason for "Dad and I went to the store" rather than "I and Dad went."
Edited 2014-02-23 21:18 (UTC)

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 09:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Also (as quoted here and there on the net), the Oxford Reference Grammar (2000) states: "In standard English, conventional politeness requires that in coordinated phrases, the second person comes first and the first person comes last: my husband and I/ you, Mary and me".

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-02-24 02:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Good question - but I'm not sure how one could find out the answer!

[identity profile] thistleingrey.livejournal.com 2014-02-23 10:47 pm (UTC)(link)
+1 re: the order (ETA that is, I was taught it thus). "Me and Julio" sounds flat wrong to me, though I know people say it.
Edited 2014-02-23 22:48 (UTC)

[identity profile] taigerchily.livejournal.com 2014-02-24 07:22 am (UTC)(link)
That's exactly what we've been teached in (Swiss)German. We have this saying "Der Esel kommt immer zuletzt" (The donkey is always the last), and of course the speaker is "the donkey" :) So it's rather rude to say "ich und Julio" in German, you have to say "Julio und ich". Always.

[identity profile] taigerchily.livejournal.com 2014-02-24 07:36 am (UTC)(link)
Back at school we've been taught to always use "Julio and me", and not "Julio and I". They told us that you do not use "I" at an enumeration like "Julio and me", but always just "me", and that you only use "I" if it's you alone. And I think someone told me once that if it's "we" (Julio and me), it's always "me".

But then, I am not a native English speaker, my teacher hasn't been a native English speaker, and school - that was when? Way back in the Middle Ages? :)

So... Which one is correct? Julio and I, or Julio and me? I have to admit that I am more than confused now :)